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Author Topic: One is three and three is one?  (Read 7580 times)
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Mill
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2014, 01:40:54 PM »

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Well I think it's pretty clear that you are confused Mill.

Everyone will have to make up their own minds based on the evidence.  Trinitarians would make the exact same claim about the Oneness position and Catholics would make it about Protestants etc.

As I've explained, the handful of scriptures that you've used have alternate explanations and they have to be taken in the context of all of the other writings (especially of that same person (Paul)).

However, let's say that we hypothetically agree that people go to heaven at death and receive their rewards and live there even though there is arguably just a few references to this and no direct references.  Do you think that there might be a problem since this doctrine is preached so much and the resurrection is hardly ever preached?  At the very least, I see a major emphasis mismatch between modern preaching and the Bible.

For example, what if every single sermon and evangelistic outreach was around "the baptism of the dead"?  It is referenced in one scripture in the whole Bible.  Or, what is every sermon was about that we need to get rich and materially prosper?  What I'm getting at here is that I think we could at least agree on that there is a drastic emphasis difference between the Bible and modern evangelism.  I'm not saying this to be critical at all.  Praise God for the evangelists with hearts burning for God who want to rescue people from the second death.  However, I'm just wondering why we see something different in the Bible (the gospels and Acts etc.).  Why is the message so different?

My underlying point here is that it seems like the resurrection has been forgotten in modern evangelism.  It and the second coming of Christ and the Day of the Lord is the focus of the whole New Testament and the whole Bible and yet, in modern evangelism all three of these are hardly ever mentioned.  These things have been substituted in the following manner:

1. "Resurrection of the faithful" by "going to heaven"
2. Second coming of Christ with "the rapture"
3. Day of the Lord and the terrible day of God's wrath with "the rapture"
4. Ruling, reigning and administrating with Christ on the earth with "life in heaven"

Are some of these things taught on?  Yes, but very rarely in my experience.  Meanwhile, how much do we hear about "going to heaven" and the rapture etc.  It is interesting to ponder why there has been such a seeming priority inversion and maybe there is something to it.

A similar situation for Catholic might be the focus on Mary.  There might be one or two scriptures that calls Mary blessed but Mary has in practice completely eclipsed Christ.  She is prayed to and adored so much.  Meanwhile there are hundreds of scriptures extolling Christ but not even one that raises Mary to the level of "Queen of Heaven" etc.

I just believe that anytime there is such a drastic emphasis inversion, it is worth taking note and investigating to see whether we may have missed something.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 01:44:26 PM by Mill » Logged
Helen
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2014, 07:05:03 PM »

Not really Mill.  Your purposeful neglect of scriptures is what makes the gaping holes in your philosophy apparent to others.  Even some of the sects that believe in “soul sleep”, the 7th Day Adventists, for example; don’t believe the soul “dies”.  They just believe in a state of unconsciousness. 

You are also wrong regarding the concept of the “immortality of the soul”.  Why argue about the “immortality of the soul” in general, when you too believe the soul will become immortal Huh?  Your argument is not whether the soul experiences immortality, but WHEN the soul experiences immortality. 

I've been putting forth the merits of the position that the soul actually dies and needs a resurrection to continue living.  The opposite of death and dying is living.

You seem to miss that your understanding regarding those who are dead is identical to the Sadducees, who in their lack of understanding the resurrection; Jesus had to point out that God is not the God of the dead. 

Quote from: Mark 12:26-27  KJV
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?  He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Was Jesus insinuating that all these prophets were still living?
 
Yep.

Solomon understood that the dust returned to the earth and the spirit returns to the God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7).

James also taught the New Covenant understanding of this truth was no different than Solomons.

Quote from: James 2:26  KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It is a rudimentary teaching in scripture that only the devil can kill the soul.  Who said so?

Jesus.

Quote from: Matt.10:28  kJV
  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I think you are really out there in La-La land Mill with your “explanations”.

Quote from: James 5:20   KJV
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
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Helen                         
          "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
                 For if you do these things, you will never fall"
                      II Peter 1:10  NIV
Helen
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« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2014, 04:12:13 AM »

As I've explained, the handful of scriptures that you've used have alternate explanations and they have to be taken in the context of all of the other writings (especially of that same person (Paul)).

Ah....no you have not.  You have been explaining your bias, but you have not been making sense in light of he scripture.  You have been blanketly dismissing the many scriptures I have cited. 

I'm glad that my posts remain in this thread for the record. Roll Eyes

I can't compare my church to the Catholic church, because my church is a protestant church.  I hear about end time events all the time in my church.  Maybe you should seek another church Mill. Undecided
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Helen                         
          "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
                 For if you do these things, you will never fall"
                      II Peter 1:10  NIV
Helen
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« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2014, 01:22:08 PM »

Another text that speaks to the soul after death/before the final judgment is II Peter 2:9.

Quote from: II Peter 2:9   NKJV
then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,

I missed this the first time I read this verse in the King James, because there is a mistranslation of the Greek stating the punishment of the unjust is  reserved "unto the day of judgment", but the correct interpretation of the Greek simply speaks to their being kept under punishment for the day of judgment [present tense form — continual punishment].  The punishment commences at the point of death. This is why the telling of the rich man and Lazarus supports this clear understanding.  This is why I have quoted the NKJV above, because it has corrected this mistranslation. 

Also tied into this understanding, we see the girl that Jesus raised from the dead and how her spirit "returned" to her body.

Quote from: Luke 8:49-55   NKJV
While He was still speaking, someone came from the ruler of the synagogue’s house, saying to him, “Your daughter is dead. Do not trouble the Teacher.” But when Jesus heard it, He answered him, saying, “Do not be afraid; only believe, and she will be made well.”   When He came into the house, He permitted no one to go in except Peter, James, and John, and the father and mother of the girl.  Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, “Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping.”   And they ridiculed Him, knowing that she was dead.  But He put them all outside, took her by the hand and called, saying, “Little girl, arise.”  Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately. And He commanded that she be given something to eat.
 

This too is what we understand of when Jesus, by the spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison after His death and before His resurrection.

Quote from: I Peter 3:18-20  NKJV
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
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Helen                         
          "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
                 For if you do these things, you will never fall"
                      II Peter 1:10  NIV
Helen
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« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2014, 06:23:07 PM »

It seems my memory also serves me well, in that the Catholic church recites their faith in the resurrection in every mass; every day.

Quote from: THE NICENE CREED
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven. By the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2014, 06:26:20 PM by Helen » Logged

Helen                         
          "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
                 For if you do these things, you will never fall"
                      II Peter 1:10  NIV
Mill
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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2014, 10:57:32 PM »

It is interesting what it is that Jesus emphasizes regarding "eternal life" which is literally "zoe aenos" or "the age life" or "the life of the age [to come]".  He seems to connect this life with being raised from death on the last day.

John 6:

Quote
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

So, when Jesus taught in a church setting, he connected "eternal life", "not being lost" and "drawn by the Father" repeatedly with "being raised up on the last day".  In modern day preaching, we have a different connection.  We would replace "being raised up on the last day with "going to heaven".  Why are they different?  Does it matter?
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Helen
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« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2014, 06:46:09 PM »

Your assumption you read  into your citation is still that you believe the Christian soul dies and needs to be resurrected Mill.  That the Body is resurrected at the last day does not contradict your citation from the book of John.  However, your soul death does contradict clear teaching that the soul does not die for those who have been redeemed.  Our God is not the God of the dead.

Paul teaches that we will be absent from our bodies and in the presence of the Lord as a general teaching, not in the context of the final judgment.  The resurrection will be a time of being in our bodies, not absent from them. 

Why is it significant to be bodily resurrected?  To receive our judgment for the things done in the body.  The final judgment is not one of the saints being judged for our sins.  Salvation has been sealed by the Holy Spirit and we are only appearing before the judgment seat of Christ to receive our rewards; or the lack thereof; whether our works were good or bad.  The final disclosure of the motives of men's hearts.  All deeds and motives will be exposed when we stand in the flesh before this judgment seat of Christ. 

Some Christians think all sins will be under the blood, but we will give an account for more than just our salvation; an answer for how we managed the talents He gave us. 

Quote from: I Cor.3:15
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire".
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Helen                         
          "Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure.
                 For if you do these things, you will never fall"
                      II Peter 1:10  NIV
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